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A counter point
Published on January 1, 2005 By Calor In Democrat

Draginol wrote an essay outlining what he seems to think are misconceptions about conservatives. That's fine and good but there is no shortage of misconceptions about American liberals.

...let me count the ways...

Liberals like to spend other people's money. No, the difference is that liberals are just not nearly as money-conscious as conservatives. We make life choices that don't lead to material wealth. Just because we tend to choose careers that involve enriching our culture, teacher our children, and protecting the defenseless doesn't make us less valuable or have less of a say in society.

We simply believe that Americans are blessed to have had the good fortune of being born here. Ergo, we should express that appreciation by contributing to the society that provided us plenty.

Liberals are naive about the real world. No, the difference is that liberals aren't as cynical as conservatives about the world. Conservatives seem to be quick to throw up their hands and say "Well that's the way life is" and then proceed on the false assumption that you can't do anything to change the world. Liberals aren't naive, we just think that we should at least try to make the world a better place as our first resort rather than as a luxury item.

Liberals are "traitors". No, the difference is that we are less likely to make artificial distinctions between someone who was geographically born in the United States and someone who was born in another country. We are all human beings. That does mean we are usually less nationalistic but that doesn't mean we're traitors either. We don't judge people based on their race, sex, or nationality. As one famous liberal said, we should judge others by the content of their character.

War on Terror.  Yes, we "get it". But conservatives don't seem to want to understand or care why countries don't like us.  Go to Greece, visit the parthenon, and what do you see across the street? A McDonalds. Can you see how some people might feel like American culture is being shoved down their throats? Combine that with an almost giddy attitude about using military force around the world.

Iraq. Saddam didn't have WMDs. He wasn't any kind of imminent threat. Was it really necessary to invade? Saddam was a cruel and terrible man. There are lots of cruel and terrible men. 

In 1946, the United States had a monopoly on the atomic bomb and was quite well aware of what a monster Stalin was. Would today's Neocon hawks have insisted that we nuke the USSR for the sake of
"regime change"? Some problems time takes care of on their own.

We went into Afghanistan and disrupted Al Qaeda. If we had stayed focused on that, we would have been safer today. Saddam could have been kept in a box on an almost indefinite basis. The Oil for food scandal and other leaks in the sanctions were not significant in the bigger scheme of things. We always had the option to go in later if we needed to - with a lot more international support. What we liberals wanted to know was why the rush? Why not finish Afghanistan first and then deal with Saddam at our leisure?

Civil Rights.  Conservatives seem to prefer to turn a blind eye and assume we're all on an equal footing. That's not true at all. Conservatives say they deal with the world as it is - except on the issue of race where they seem to want to pretend we live in racial harmony.  Affirmative action programs aren't perfect. No solution is perfect. But conservatives response to Affirmative action is to close their eyes and wish away the fact that minorities have it a lot tougher in this country than whites.

Conservatives may be better in their knowledge of history on average but that is not always a strength. They are often so rooted to the past that they cannot think outside the box. They don't seem to be willing to at least accept the possibility that we can improve as a species. Just because bad men did bad things in the past doesn't mean we have to do the same bad things today. Maybe that's why liberals are more likely to believe in evolution and conservatives are more likely to believe in creationism. We believe man can improve.


Comments (Page 4)
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on Jan 03, 2005

Reply #39 By: dabe - 1/2/2005 10:59:23 PM
Glad you liked it! Did you answer the question?


Yes, I did.


Then where is the answer?
on Jan 03, 2005
drmiler, what you need to understand is that forign policy is a countries way of dealing with its neibhours, thus whilist it may be YOUR forign policy it is the rest of us that get affected by it, that makes it our business, whether you like it or not, so we do have the right to object, what non US citizens don't have the right to do is dictate domestic policy to you, which I might remind you is exactly what the US administration seems to think forign policy means, like it or not the perception of the US and to some extent its allies, and yes this includes Australia, is that we have an agorant attitude to other countries domectic policy, and I agree we do, which is why we all have to some extent become maligned in many parts of the world, whether well intentioned or not.
on Jan 03, 2005
By your I meant conservatives. Draginol criticised liberal foreign policy and I criticised conservative foreign policy. I know it's difficult, but try to keep up drmiller.
on Jan 03, 2005
Reply #47 By: zergimmi - 1/3/2005 4:21:42 AM
drmiler, what you need to understand is that forign policy is a countries way of dealing with its neibhours, thus whilist it may be YOUR forign policy it is the rest of us that get affected by it, that makes it our business, whether you like it or not, so we do have the right to objec


Your right, you do have the right to object. Just like we have the right to ignore your ojections. You seem to forget something. Foreign policy is in place because *we* want to deal with you. If it ever comes to the point where we no longer wish to deal with you or becomes more trouble than it's worth, then the policy goes by the wayside. And BTW how we arrive at a particular policy would *stiil* be none of your business. The only thing that would be your business is the effects such policy might have on your particular nation.
on Jan 03, 2005

Reply #48 By: Champas Socialist - 1/3/2005 5:04:23 AM
By your I meant conservatives. Draginol criticised liberal foreign policy and I criticised conservative foreign policy. I know it's difficult, but try to keep up drmiller.


Read reply #49. BTW do not compare your liberals or your conservatives to the US versions. Apples and oranges And Draginol was critizing US liberal policy. How would you know how they think? What you call a liberal and what we refer to as a liberal are 2 different things.
on Jan 03, 2005
Then where is the answer?


The question was, "When do I turn of legal age?" drmiler wants to know the answer. The answer is I have already turned of age - to legally drive a car, drink alcohol, be emancipated from my parents, sign a contract, go to war, get married without parental consent, etc.
on Jan 03, 2005
What you call a liberal and what we refer to as a liberal are 2 different things.


Bingo! The most insightful thing I've ever seen you post to JU, even if I did take it out of context.
on Jan 03, 2005

Reply #52 By: dabe - 1/3/2005 7:27:01 AM
What you call a liberal and what we refer to as a liberal are 2 different things.


Bingo! The most insightful thing I've ever seen you post to JU, even if I did take it out of context.


Yea Gods! Is the world coming to an end?
on Jan 03, 2005
You learn something new every day, draginol. Conservatives are the masters of "hate" speech. Just consider the Republican Convention


When did the Repbulican Convention have "hate speech". Wasn't it the Democratic Convention who had to tell it's attendees not to to turn it into a Bush hate fest?
on Jan 03, 2005
drmiler, we all call a liberal a liberal, it has the same defination the world over, variations may occur on what you percieve as liberals. I would also like to add that in todays age of communication, for you to make the comment that others would not understand what you are talking about is pure bullshit. On forign policy I would suggest that you have the same arrogant attitude which many people find so offensive about US policy, however I agree that how the US drafts its policies is the business of the US, sadly how it drafts those policies is how it is percieved by the world just as all countries are percieved, to have a forign policy which ignors the world/other nations in its drafting is folly, I doubt you would be to happy if say the european union or russia decided to create a forign policy which had a detrimental effect on your country, which is why the US administration takes a strong interest in the policies of other countries both forign and domestic, that's why the CIA and other similar orginisations exist. No nation can exist as an island cut off from the rest of the world, without very soon imploding economically and socially. Finally I would say that the attitudes you portray in you replies to this and many other blogs is the very type of arogance people find nauseating and repulsive, you seem to be a very angry and bloody minded type, who is very intolerant of others both at home and from abroad, you are certainly a poor example of diplomacy. Quite the bully really. As for forign policy being in place because you want to deal with us is another example of this arogance, relationships are built on many things, mutual trust and respect, these are relationships build up between countries, to say they are because we want to deal with you is in its most simplest form the reason, however countries have forign policies to deal with all countries not just the ones they like, but also how they deal with those they don't like to deal with, and in many cases these policies are built by many nations together, sp to say it is a one sided choice of who you like or dislike is crap, forign policy is a plan for dealing with many issues, and yes each state has its right to defend itself and protect its people, this is part of forign policy so is trade, imagration, general relations helping poorer nations and so on, so yes each nation makes its own policies based on their needs and values, but they generally do take into account its effect on others, this is part of being a good citizen in the world today. The reason I make these points is the perception in the world today that US forign policy does not consider other nations Sovereignty, this may or may not be true but it is a perception, and comments do not help to disuade me from this. Having said this my position on your country in general is pretty much that you like most other developed nations are mostly pretty decent people, but you have a real image problem at the moment, to the point that the most recent Presidential elections were the most watched in the history of television, wht people really had strong feeling about who would lead your country. So yes it is none of our business how your policies are drafted any more than t is your's on how we do it, but the effects are, once again this is true, but for god's sake do you have to be so obnoxious with your attitude.
on Jan 03, 2005
Now under the pressure of current economics, it is much harder for these businesses to survive and compete with Maccas. Maccas after all can advertise, can afford to charge less, is a status symbol, can serve up the food quicker, can afford higher rent


You still don't understand. The "pressure of current economics" comes from your Aussie dollars - Economics 101. McDonald's can't afford a toadstool if you don't spend your money there. Sure they can afford an advertising blitz & all that, but does that make you Aussies a bunch of craven sheep? Are you so weak that you can't resist that lower price? Can't bring yourself to patronize restaurants with food you prefer because Macs are a buck cheaper? You have a choice and you should take responsibility for that choice. Americans have collectively chosen to eat that crap & we have to live with the consequences. But if enough individuals chose not to, they'd go away or change. I always figured Aussies for being smarter than us.

Cheers,
Daiwa
on Jan 03, 2005

Yes, all us lefties are sheep, so they all think like me, Draginol. Your attitude to this, I would say, equally explains why your foreign policy always ends up in disaster in my eyes. Your attitude to what constitues hate speech may also explain how some people got banned last year. Obviously you get upset about things that I think are fairly tame and vice versa.

How to get banned from JoeUser: Create an article entitled "Draginol is an asshole!" with content that says thing "I'll see you in hell you fucking bastard. I hope you die!!!!!".  Yes, I consider that hate speech.

By contrast, I don't consider an essay pointing out the historical issues with a political ideology to be hate speech.  Liberals seem to think everything is hate speech except actual hate speech.

For all the accusations that my article on misconceptions on conservatives is "hateful" I've noticed none of you have bothered to quote something from it and say "This sentence is hateful". 

There's really nothing "liberal" about todays American liberal.  Rather they would rather label criticism as hate speech and work to get it censored as they do on campuses and in other mediums across the world.

Liberals don't want to have a reasoned discussion. They just toss out loaded terms at their opponents ("your opinions are hateful" or "bigoted" or "racist" or "fascist") with the apparent intent to stop any sort of discussion.  I think this is because, deep down, most left wingers realize that their positions do not hold up to any sort of close scrutiny..


on Jan 03, 2005
Ergo, we should express that appreciation by contributing to the society that provided us plenty.


But as soon as you change "we should" to "we must" via taxes, you are using the government to spend other people's money.

Can you see how some people might feel like American culture is being shoved down their throats?


Funny you should mention Greece because ancient Greek culture has been far more influential than McDonalds. Should we hate Greece because Plato and Aristotle have been shoved down our throats for hundreds of years?

on Jan 03, 2005

When did the Repbulican Convention have "hate speech". Wasn't it the Democratic Convention who had to tell it's attendees not to to turn it into a Bush hate fest?

Yea, remember the Wellington Memorial?  Seems all the hate has been coming from the left.

on Jan 03, 2005

drmiler, we all call a liberal a liberal, it has the same defination the world over, variations may occur on what you percieve as liberals.

Actually, according to Champas, who is Australian, their liberal party is very conservative.  So you are wrong.

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