An alternative view on life, politics, and computers
It's not antisemitism, it is a balanced look at the Israel/Palestinian situation
Published on November 11, 2003 By Calor In Politics

    Some people say that Israel gets treated like a second class citizen in the family of nations. That's probably true. But it isn't without reason. I read the pro-Israel articles posted here and using the power of JoeUser, I'm taking advantage of the equal time this site provides to give a different point of view.

    The nation of Israel was a gift. Yes, Jews lived there at the time of creation and those particular Jews have a historical claim to the region. But they didn't get their nation through force of arms. They didn't get their nation through a compelling argument for self determination. They got their nation because 6 million Jews were murdered in World War II. You can debate back and forth all day about whether what mighta, shoulda, woulda been if the holocaust hadn't happened. But the bottom line is that the United States with Britain pushed through the creation of Israel largely out of sympathy. The nation of Israel was thus born. But it was supposed to be 2 nations. Transjordan did indeed occupy some of the territory originally envisioned to be part of a "Palestinian" state. But not all. The Arabs responded the same way they have responded since the original crusades, they tried to push the invaders into the sea. They lost. And Israel, through subsequent wars (that were not Israel's fault) gained additional territory.

    But to leave it at that would be an incomplete picture. The incomplete picture that many Americans cling to.

    To Arabs, many if not most Jews living today in Israel are just plain foreigners. Westerners at that. They're people from Russia, eastern Europe and the United States mostly. Anyone reading this, if they want, can be a Jew. Poof. You're a Jew. You're from China? No problem. You can convert. Move to Israel. Get a settlement in the West Bank. That is how many Arabs look at it.

    Israel is just a Western colony backed by the United States that is full of foreigners. Foreigners who, year after year, take land from people whose descendents have lived in that region for hundreds if not thousands of years. To Arabs, the claim that some European or American calling himself Jewish can therefore have a historical claim to that region is offensive. What? Some ancestor 15 generations back came from that part of the world? You think Ariel Sharon's family has some multi-generational claim to the land that Israel currently occupies? Whatever you want to call the Palestinians, there's no debate about where their ancestors came from.

    I wonder how Americans would feel in an alternative reality where the Ottoman Empire was the world's super power and that the state of New York was designated as a land where "Native Americans" could return and settle (to the exclusion of people who happened to live in New York). How would they feel if most of these "Native Americans" were not actually from North America but in fact came from say China and Russia and the Middle East but still claimed to be "Native Americans" because their families, at some point down the line, chose to Cherokees? What if, in fact that the Native American claim was actually 2000 years old instead of just 100 years? How do you think Americans would react then? In fact, we do know since we can see exactly how Americans dealt with people on lands that they wanted. Live in Oklahoma? Did you know the entire state was originally set up by the United States as a land for American Indians? But they changed their minds later on. Which is particularly galling given the background on how the American Indians got there in the first place.

    This doesn't excuse the terrorism of the Palestinians. And it is that -- terrorism. From their vantage point, they feel like they have no alternative. They're desperate. Israel doesn't exist thanks to its own hard work alone like Draginol claimed. It exists largely thanks to BILLIONS (that's with a of dollars in aid from the United States every single year. In Arabic eyes, if it looks like a colony, acts like a colony, maybe it is a colony. A colony that year after year claims it wants peace while not addressing the basic problem: The foreigners who moved in who happen to call themselves "jews" have no more legitimate claim to the lands that Arabs have lived on for centuries than the Chinese do.

    So why do Europeans see Israel as a threat to world peace? Because Israel is a luxury that the west may not be able to afford. Think about it. Where did modern terrorism come from? Northern Ireland? Think again. Suicide bombers are the invention of Islamic fanatics in their attempt to try to reclaim the land of Israel from this latest western crusade. And that instability, that violence, that terrorism has spread across the entire Islamic world. Would it have happened if Israel had never been re-created? Probably not.  Without Israel, the corrupt Arabic regimes would not be able to focus the resentment of their masses on something in order to deflect from their own incompetence. The United States would not have to prop up the petty dictatorships in countries like Egypt and Saudi Arabia.  In other words, the world, as a whole, has paid a high price for Israel to exist. And has its existence somehow benefited the world in some way that can possibly outweigh the misery it has caused directly or indirectly? I don't see it.

    When Israel is listed as a threat to world peace, it doesn't mean that the people of Israel have intentionally done ill. It doesn't take responsibility for the evils committed by the Palestinians or other Arabs away. It just is a straight forward calculus that regardless of blame, the existence of Israel has created a lot more problems than it has solved. And that there are two sides to any story. It's not anti-Semitism. It's not hatred of Jews. It is just a realistic assessment of world affairs. The policies of Israel and the west have, like it or not, created an environment that has generated 3 generations of terrorists now.  Americans can be for Israel on principle. But Europeans have to deal with the mess created by America on a daily basis because of their geographic closeness. It's easy to have high minded principles when you have an ocean to separate you.

    Israel is a threat because it is seen by many, as a western colony that takes land away from peoples who have lived there for centuries to hand over to foreigners whose families have little or no claim on those lands. From that springs anger and hatred in a region that still remembers previous western crusades. That hatred in turn creates terrorism that affects the entire world. Not everyone cares who's fault the terrorism rests on. They care, however, that it happens and what the root cause of it is.


Comments (Page 3)
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on Nov 13, 2003
Andrew if you read what I said "what is and what isn't" then you would know that what I said is no different to you comment, Jews just like the rest of us can be anti semite, my point is and I'll say it again, people can differ with the policies of the Govenrment without being anti semite, very simple and it is that simple. I fail to see why I can critise any other group, Country and/or religion, and get no label yet to critise Isreal makes me anti semite.

I am not as I am sure most people who disagre with them would fall into the same category.
on Nov 14, 2003
Zergimmi,

my point was not that you are an anti-semite if you differ with the policies of the government of Israel. However, if you disagree with their actions even though you approve of or accept similar actions of other governments or people in the same region, you ARE an anti-semite, because at that point you judge the Israeli government not for what it does but for what it is (namely, the _Israeli_ government), and that is rascism and WRONG. I hope you get that.

I support Israel and its government because they behave better than Arab governments. Israel critics make demands that Israel change its ways but approve of or ignore when Arab governments do even worse deeds. That's the difference.

And it's the same for critizising other groups in other regions, it has nothing to do with Jews or Israel in particular (and the very act of your behaving as if it did shows what anti-semitism has already done even to the seemingly open-minded). If you critizised, say, Kurds for defending themselves against Iraqi attacks (before the war, obviously), but not Iraqis for attacking them, or claimed that the conflict must be ended by the Kurds giving up defending themselves, you would be a rascist too. It's not at all limited to the Israel conflict.

The idea that, say, blacks are partly reponsible for how whites treated them a few decades ago, and that they should simply do whatever the white men say in order to avoid a conflict, is another example. And very few people would actually subscribe to such a proposal (except rascists, who still do). However, when it comes to Israel, such a solution suddenly becomes practical and possible.

And THAT, my friend, is anti-semitism.

I'm afraid you are right about one thing though: most people who disagree with Israel's policies do indeed seem to fall into the same category. I have met very very few Israel critics who even understood the idea that Arabs must also at some point become more civilized and that Israel can only change its ways when Arabs stop attacking it.
on Nov 15, 2003
You raised some very good points.
on Nov 18, 2003
A couple points:

Main Entry: Ar·ab
Pronunciation: 'ar-&b, 'er-; dial also 'A-"rab
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin Arabus, Arabs, from Greek Arab-, Araps
Date: 14th century
1 a : a member of the Semitic people of the Arabian peninsula b : a member of an Arabic-speaking people

Furthermore:

Main Entry: Sem·ite
Pronunciation: 'se-"mIt, esp British 'sE-"mIt
Function: noun
Etymology: French sémite, from Semitic Shem, from Late Latin, from Greek SEm, from Hebrew ShEm
Date: 1848
1 a : a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs b : a descendant of these peoples
2 : a member of a modern people speaking a Semitic language

I assume that everyone here who mentions the word "Arab" is referring to a member of the Nation of Islam, Islamic peoples, or members of the Muslim religion. Some Jews are Arabs, some Arabs are also Jews.

For what it's worth, having been to Israel - I've met Muslims who carry Israeli passports and who participate in the free elections as every registered Israeli citizen is allowed to.

Contemplate this - If, in the United States, a paramilitary force was to rise up, for WHATEVER reason, and commited atrocities against the peaceable people of the United States, they would put down immediately, by whatever means neccessary, including deadly military force. There is a precedent for this in history, and noone ever questions the U.S. military when insurgents are put down.

Israel being a democratic country, with democraticly elected leaders, should be any different?

On a side note, in Tel-Aviv - a cab driver who was also a Muslim man, put it succincntly one night when he said, paraphrased, post 9-11 - "noone comes here anymore...they don't understand that we're just people, trying to live our lives, we like art and movies and shows, and enjoy good meals, just like everyone else."

Another man - a very well educated individual, living in Ramat-Gan, well spoken in English, Hebrew, German, and Persian - was very happy with his ability to live and be a productive member of Israeli society.

Seems that the desperate, potentially under-educated, militant peoples with access to weaponry are on the wrong side.

Same thing as in the United States, you don't get to choose your country, but you can work within it's systems to effect change, or you can leave...
on Nov 18, 2003
Why shouldn't you get to choose your country?

Israel did! Created a new country from scratch, despite being the minority population.
America did! Rebelled against the English and then expanded into Indian, French and Mexican lands.
Half the planet did!

Paul.
on Nov 20, 2003
The problem from the Arab perspective is that Israel, as a nation, is only Israel in name. They are as much Israel as the new game company called Atari has in common with the original Atari.

It is like they decided to install a European colony and brought back an age old trademark name for its brand name strength and labeled it. Then they brought in millions of Europeans who had, over the centuries, living in Europe, chosen to be Jews.

Why should Arabs have to put up with that any more than Americans put up with say California being given to "Native Americans" and then finding that most of the people claiming to be Indians are really from Greece but happened to have, for whatever reason, converted to Cherokee at some point.
on Nov 20, 2003
Zerg: "To be truely Jewish you must be able to trace you Jewish blood back to Abraham, it must be uninterupted and must be on your mother's side, Jews are one of the many Tribes/Nations which make up the people of the Middle East, along with Arabs and Persians, these can then be divided up into sub - groups such as Palestinians. So these people in the main do have a direct connection to the land in which they now reside. Other than that the rest of your argument spot on. "

Oh come on, Abraham is reported to have lived what? 3000 years ago? How many people can legitimately trace their family tree back 300 years let alone 3000 years?
on Nov 20, 2003
Abraham of course lived in the city or UR in Iraq. Does that mean that true Jews can claim part of Iraq but must relinquish Israel?

And before anyone bothers to reply. Of course not! But it does show the whole point of a modern claim on a location which many other races have also lived in.

The bottom line is that both Jews and Arabs live in that land and need a peace solution. Any solution based on ancient claims and rights is unlikely to be accepted by the other side.

Paul.
on Nov 24, 2003
"To be truely Jewish you must be able to trace you Jewish blood back to Abraham, it must be uninterupted and must be on your mother's side"

Odd, I never heard of Abraham having daughters before
on Nov 28, 2003
Oh yes anti semitism the jews reply to any arguement they cant win. The majority of jews living in that shitty little country are a turkish mongrel race who cpnverted to Judasim and are not the biblical hebrews and have no claim at all on the land they now ilegally occupy.
Israel is a prosperous cunt rty because of monies being given to it from German guilt due to the massive propaganda of the holo hoax. Also as zog runs practically every western country your coffers have indeed been full. Europes wakening up now so you free loading bastards can start to worry.
The worlds finally waking up to the deceit murder and hatred of your shitty little country and your hateful lying deceitful race
All the best to the Arabs
on Nov 28, 2003
A fact of history is that the displacement of Palestinians was mostly created when the
surrounding Arab nations urged the arab inhabitants of the newly formed state of Israel
in 1948 to leave the area until they could push the Jews into the sea. That did not happen.
The state of Israel offered to let Arabs return to there homes but most choose not to. The
surrounding Arab countries were not eager to make room for these displaced people that
they had created. Palestinian refugee problem was thus created.
on Dec 01, 2003
I love ya! LOVE YA LOVE YA LOVE YA! Some of yer facts are a littl;e tweaked...but still!
on Dec 15, 2003
You sound just like any other Jew hating anti-christ that has the audacity to claim that the Jewish people should just get up and leave their prosperous nation and give it to the Palestinian vermin who will then joyfully turn it into a training ground for terrorists where they can launch attacks on America and it's allies.
If the US does not protect democracy where it is being threatened the most, we will be fighting this war on American soil! Let them blow up the Empire State Building next and so on etc...
Get the facts straight, the Arabs are not our friends and would love nothing more than to see America brought to it's knees. They have no love for democracy or our religion and it's morals.
President Bush is taking the war to the terrorists who just happen to be mostly Arabs and Muslims.
Better to have our troops defend our country over there than here!
Remember, Arab muslims declared war on America on 9/11, not the other way around.
President Bush is keeping his word and is seeing his success in defeating terrorism at it's root.
Israel is the only democratic nation in the middle East, and it is seeking peace with the Palestinian terrorists but having no success and needs us as an ally.
You and the Palestinian mongrels get no sympathy here.
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