Political Games on JoeUser

The right plays dirty but more effectively

Published on June 12, 2005 By Calor In Politics

Any non partisan person who visits JoeUser long enough will get the feeling that the site is a right wing leaning site. They'd be right. Part of the reason has to do with many of the better writers here just happen to be conservatives. But another reason is that some of the right wingers act like packs of predators, baiting and chasing off anyone who dares espouse other points of view.

The way they do it is simple, they piss them off. Whenever a progressive post is written, a pack of mean-spirited right wingers will pile on and start insulting, belittleing and putting down what they said. Very rarely are any of the points raised discussed. Instead, those points are dismissed out of hand and the person making the article attacked and smeared.

Eventually the left winger is chased off the site. If they don't leave voluntarily, they eventually get mad and start attacking back. Some of the high profile left of center people here on JU have not played the game well. Wisefawn, Dabe, Myrrander and many other outspoken progressives have let the conservative wolf packs piss them off to the point of losing their cool and playing into their hands ending in banishment or some sort of limited voice.

I think JU's admins need to advertise the blacklist feature more. I also think JU admins need to try to feature more balanced articles. I think many progressives feel frustrated and angry because conservatives get their posts featured more. I'm not going to fall into the pack's trap. I will just black list and ignore those who just want to personally attack me as a person for writing about things that matter to me that don't fit into their world view. I will also smile inside when I see the next post decrying how 'liberals' are intolerant, unreasonable, hateful because I know that conservatives are just as guilty. I write about things I enjoy on MY blog. And there is no excuse for the personal attacks I saw HERE and HERE.

Comments (Page 1)

bakerstreet

on Jun 12, 2005

"The way they do it is simple, they piss them off. Whenever a progressive post is written, a pack of mean-spirited right wingers will pile on and start insulting, belittleing and putting down what they said. Very rarely are any of the points raised discussed. Instead, those points are dismissed out of hand and the person making the article attacked and smeared."

I would answer that by saying that the "progressives" in question either:

A) Don't know how to debate

or

Didn't want to debate in the first place.

You don't belittle and insult someone who knows how to debate without risking your stance. You can maybe weave a bit of a taunt in here and there, but if you drop to a 3rd grade level you allow them to take the high road and sacrifice your position.

In my experience, many of the "progressives" you mention are just outraged that there can be a second valid perspective. "Duh" seems to be a common "progressive" retort.

The problem is, when you believe your truths to be self evident, and anyone who doesn't hold to them to be "sheeple", you allow yourself to believe those who oppose you are stupid. We aren't. Then, when you get in a name-calling match and someone with some substance destroys your point, you're left standing there with a bloody nose and a hand full of hair.

I try to defuse situations like that if I feel the person on the bad end of it isn't asking for it. You'll find that a couple of the people you mention LIKE to scrap, and just refuse to accept that they suck at it. Others, like you say, are easy to bait into rabidity.

You'll find it most everywhere. Go write something right-leaning at Democratic Underground. Careful, though, the powers that be there unashamedly delete Conservative posts. Here at JU, all are welcome. If they can't handle the heat, though, well...

Draginol

on Jun 12, 2005

I don't feature articles based on their poltical views but generally how well they're written. My goal is to have as many readers of the site as possible. So "progressive" articles will get featured as long as A) I see them and they're reasonably well written.

You'd be surprised how many articles I can't post because they're full of typos. I'd feature more of Kingbee's articles except he doesn't use any capital letters for instance (and yes, it matters).

Champas Socialist

on Jun 12, 2005

We had an interesting discussion recently in a linguistics course about whether the convention of using capital letters to mark the start of a sentence will last the rest of this century. The advent of SMS language and the internet is seeing new grammars proliferate. For some time, mass schooling and dictionaries have stunted the natural evolution of the language, but these more populist forums for written language are finding a way to undermine the power of the language elitists and so we are seeing the language change more quickly, although the dictionaries are yet to catch up.

Personally I think capitals will stay, but Draginol, I find it interesting that you would nevertheless accept 'favorite' . I also find it interesting that you use the excuse "the Lefties have poor grammar" when even Right wing bloggers have criticised the pathetic grammar of many of the bloggers who get featured at JU. And rightly so in many cases. At other times you've claimed it's because of a lack of decent argumentation from the Left bloggers, yet I've rarely seen anything that was particularly intellectually engaging written by the Right wing bloggers at JU. There are good arguments to be made for the Right, but that is rarely demonstrated here, except perhaps for JU's Libertarian Right bloggers.

But I am not exactly unhappy to see the hating Lefties leave. They do us a disservice in the same way that LW makes the Right look completely unreasonable, when in fact, they aren't. I have many Right wing friends and they can often engage me in good discussion.

drmiler

on Jun 12, 2005

Ya know calor if you don't like the articles here you can always take you left leaning butt somewhere else.

cactoblasta

on Jun 13, 2005

Ya know calor if you don't like the articles here you can always take you left leaning butt somewhere else.

You know drmiler I can never really tell if you're for real or if you're just someone who really enjoys irony. That was classic though. You actually made me laugh out loud with that one.

Calor I agree with you to an extent, but I think a lot of the left-leaning articles also seem to do their best to piss off right-wingers as well. In my opinion the basis for a right-leaning reputation is not about the individual writers at all. It's more that righties have outnumbered lefties here from the very beginning, so the right has developed more inertia - weight of numbers and the power of the 'old guard' gives their side a natural advantage. In comparison there are very, very few long-running leftist writers on this site- they've mostly been run off. The only one I can think of who contributes particularly reguarly is kingbee. So just about every left article has the 'upstart' badge as well.

And if that left article is a cut-and-paste job (like so many articles seem to be these days) it's going to get slammed (deservedly, although perhaps disproportionately). Which will of course create anger. Few lefties have either the status or the inclination to successfully slam a righty without coming off worse, so the (successful) attacks tends to flow one way.

Or at least that's my theory of Joeuser 'political games'. Take it how you will.

Manopeace

on Jun 13, 2005

To debate or discuss is different than cussing and disagreeing for disagreements sake. To disagree is healthy.. to get your point across by swearing, presenting outrageous opinions is not the way to change anyones mind.
No one will cuss on my threads.. it will be deleted and they will be blacklisted.
No one will use racial slander on my threads.
No one will attack me personally on my threads.
Disagree with me YES, in a civil way. Baker is the champion of that.
The left, the right, they are both guilty of not debating properly. To some it is a game, as you say. To others it is a serious forum to share ideas.

Dr Guy

on Jun 13, 2005

The way they do it is simple, they piss them off.

That has got to be the funniest line I have read in a long time! So you are implying that liberals and left leaners cannot debate without getting overly emotional?

Thanks for the laugh.

Zoomba

on Jun 13, 2005

You list people like Wise, Myrrander and Dabe as being the poor abused liberals on the site, how they've been unfairly run out of Dodge so to speak by the hordes of oppressive conservatives on the site. While each of them are capable of writing well thought-out and civil articles and responses, more often than not they resort to rather vile name calling, cursing, swearing as well as wishing harm on those who disagree. There is a line you do not cross here, and those three took a running start, with a jet pack strapped to their backs, and launched themselves over and beyond that line. To them, the line is a distant memory.

The difference between the radical liberals and the radical conservatives on this site is that the conservatives know where that line is and know how to just barely skirt it. Little-Whip is a good example here. She's crossed the line before and gotten a slap from the admins and sent to her room. Now, she knows just where the limit is, and runs right up to it quite often (I believe she's even admitted this in the past). She knows where the line is, knows where it can be "bent" and uses this knowledge to her advantage. She's smart about pissing people off... and that's the big difference between the left and the right here... The Right knows their limits and works within them. The Left, in it's uncontrolled rage, can't even see the line and as a result land themselves in trouble.

I fall on the left of the political spectrum (though much closer to the middle than the three listed at the start of my comment) and have very little trouble with the conservatives here. I actually attempt to articulate my point in a clear and civil manner. My goal is not to convert, because honestly no one is really going to change their minds, but to get my point across. While people like Moderateman, LW, Baker etc... do not usually agree with me, I get the impression that they at least respect me and my position. As a result I can debate issues with them, which is fun for me, without anyone getting mad, without anyone throwing a fit and storming off.

The Right is "winning" here because they are able to articulate their thoughts... they know their limits... The Left here is often so angry it can't get a coherent sentence out and has no real concept of limits and rules.

MasonM

on Jun 13, 2005

You're mistaken in thinking that only left leaning people get "sent to their room" here at JU. I am one who doesn't get drawn in to most of the heated political debates here, but that doesn't mean I don't read them and occassionally comment.

I have seen people on both sides reprimanded, warned, and sent to their room when they cross the line and violate the TOS. Just yesterday I saw Brad send a definate righty sent to his room for a flagrant violation. Deservedly so.

As someone who more often that not simply watching how these "debates" develop I have noticed that many (no where near ALL) on the left side of a debate often tend to be the first to hurl insults and denigrate those who disagree.

I have seen those on the right of these debates make fun of nonsense statements and failure to provide any factual base for arguements much more often than drawing "first blood" in the way of personal insults. (There are exceptions)

While these are generalities, and there are always exceptions on both sides, the right usually presents rational fact based arguements while the left tends to fall more on vague emotion based arguements.

The most effective left leaning articles I have read here, and there are many, are well written, presented in a factual manner, and avoid falling back on emotional rhetoric when the article is challenged.

No-one, right or left, is permitted to hurl streams of profanity and insults at others for long before being warned and, if they continue, sent to their room for a while.

Quite simply, if you can't debate a topic with facts instead of insults, right or left, shut up and stay out of it.

*disclaimer: the views expressed here are those of the writer and not necessarily representative of the views of any other person, living or dead and are not to be mistaken for fact, fiction, or cookie recipes.

Zoomba

on Jun 13, 2005

not to be mistaken for fact, fiction, or cookie recipes.

Whew... good thing you cleared that up Mason! Almost had me running to the kitchen looking for a baking sheet and some flour after reading your comment

Dr Guy

on Jun 13, 2005

Well, I would say that Mason and Zoomba just articulated very well the TOS and how to conduct oneself in a professional manner. I may not be Zoomba (contrary to an earlier claim), but I do agree with him on occassion, and some of the other members of the left of center as well.

stutefish

on Jun 13, 2005

Calor, if you'd be so kind as to draw my attention to a recent post of yours, I'd be happy to populate its comments with at least a little polite, thoughtful debate on whatever points you raise.

AnthonyR

on Jun 13, 2005

I think the rights extremism is worse than the left's at this site

Gideon MacLeish

on Jun 13, 2005

Calor,

I don't see it the same way you do. While I'm neither left or right, I tend to have reasonable discourse with most of both persuasions. And, frankly, I see both sides as being equally guilty in their personal attacks on others.

Yes, there is a tendency of bloggers on Joeuser to be more conservative than the general populace, there is also a fairness among the admins of this site. I've seen featured articles by kingbee, myrrander, dabe, you, stevendedalus, wisefawn (back in her day), and many other liberals when the articles were well written and well prepared. But I've also seen reasons WHY "piling on" occurs.

I guess you define "personal attack" differently than I do. You see an attack against the left or your party as being a "personal attack"; I don't. I see an attack belittling you or attacking your position with NO intellectual justification as being a personal attack ("Jane, you ignorant slut!" is a personal attack"; most metaphors are not if the metaphor aptly illustrates your point).

But communication can ease up a lot of the conflict. In one response to dabe, I respectfully told her that I had a problem with the fact that she couldn't string together more than a single sentence without profanity, and guess what? In her responses TO ME (although not necessarily to others on the same thread), I find virtually NO profanity since I made that statement.

I don't see either side as "playing dirty", but I DO see BOTH sides as putting partisanship ahead of civility. If we continue to do that, it will hurt ALL of us, greatly.

Just my two cents.

Texas Wahine

on Jun 13, 2005

I'm going to agree to a point.

Joeuser's forums are (or at least seems to be) more populated by conservatives (or possibly they are just the more vocal or even articulate and thus the most noticable).

Featured articles tend (not always, but tend) to be conservative articles. I have often seen poorly written articles featured that I can only assume were featured because Draginol agreed with them. I'll buy that being featured is also partly a result of chance because Draginol is a busy guy and not everything is going to draw his attention or be posted at a time when he is able to notice it.

And to be fair, not everything he features is political in nature.

While I'll agree with many others on here that there have been a (rather small) number of liberals who have conducted themselves in a way that facilitated their banning/grounding and who attacked those who didn't share their views, there is also a problem with this on the conservative side as well, which seems to get overlooked.

Conservatives are quick to dismiss thoughts from those they consider liberal and often call names and hurl insults at those they don't agree with simply because they don't agree.

While I've yet to see anyone on the right do it as rabidly as say, dabe, I've watched conservatives call anyone they didn't agree with fools, dummies, bleeding hearts, assholes, etc. A popular conservative tactic (not saying that all conservatives do this, but I do see it a lot on the forums) is to tell the person that they disagree with that they aren't educated, are too intellectual to understand, that they can't read, don't understand, have comprehension problems, etc.

"If you read my link and still don't agree with me, then you must be stupid."

It's just a general atmosphere of rudeness and disdain created for those whose beliefs don't match their own.

(OK, now flame me to a crisp

)

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